239: Becoming Patrice with Patrice Brend’amour

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By Brett Terpstra. Discovered by Player FM and our community — copyright is owned by the publisher, not Player FM, and audio is streamed directly from their servers. Hit the Subscribe button to track updates in Player FM, or paste the feed URL into other podcast apps.

Patrice Brend’amour is a content creator and developer. The last time we talked (2014), Patrice was living as a man, and this episode focuses on her transition to living as a proudly transgender woman.

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Transcript

Brett and Patrice

[00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] Alright, so Patrice, how you been?

[00:00:04] Patrice: [00:00:04] Uh, been been good. I mean, super, super busy. It has been, it has been awhile, like, I mean, systematic. What was that like? 2012

[00:00:14] ish.

[00:00:16] Brett: [00:00:16] I actually, I built a search into my browser. I can tell you in seconds

[00:00:22] Patrice: [00:00:22] course it did.

[00:00:23]Brett: [00:00:23] you were on in 2014.

[00:00:27] Patrice: [00:00:27] Okay. So it hasn’t been that long. I mean it’s still six years. Yeah.

[00:00:31] Brett: [00:00:31] six years. And I, I realized this morning that envy alt the, the notational velocity fork that I made is 10 years old. This year. It’s been, it’s been a decade. Yeah.

[00:00:45] Patrice: [00:00:45] That is a long time.

[00:00:48] Brett: [00:00:48] time keeps marching on and I’m 42 now and, and the world is not slowing down.

[00:00:54] Why does everything speed up as you get older?

[00:00:57] Patrice: [00:00:57] Yeah. That’s, that’s the crazy thing. I mean the same for me. Like [00:01:00] I realized that I’ve been working like actively working job wise in software development for 10 years. Like almost exactly like 10 years in a couple of months. And like, I’m like, that’s crazy.

[00:01:12] Brett: [00:01:12] I’ve been developing for the web for over 20 years now. That’s the kind of thing that old people say.

[00:01:18] Patrice: [00:01:18] I mean, that means the web is at least 20 years old.

[00:01:21]Brett: [00:01:21] Yeah. I started, I started in about 1990, probably 95 was when I made my first website. What’s that? 25 years.

[00:01:32] Patrice: [00:01:32] that is yeah. 25 years. I mean, I’m, I’m close to that. I think my first website I made like in 98, maybe 97, 98, like eighth grade. That part I remember.

[00:01:46] Brett: [00:01:46] when D HTML was hot technology,

[00:01:49] Patrice: [00:01:49] yeah. Yeah. I mean, we started with like, Oh, is it like HTML? I want to say four was, Alrighty. Was it three or four? I don’t even remember. I [00:02:00] just remember we had like, there wasn’t like a club in school or wherever it basically, we got like a bunch of people got together and learned HTML and I just remembered that was a CT with like the latest HTML version.

[00:02:11]Brett: [00:02:11] Was it an official club that the school endorsed or just a bunch of people that had common interest?

[00:02:16] Patrice: [00:02:16] Uh, just a bunch of people. I mean, it’s more, it was, it was, I mean, the school was, I mean, obviously knew about it because we could use school resources and whatever, but there was no teacher or anything. It was like more informal.

[00:02:30] Brett: [00:02:30] My school was like deathly afraid of anyone who knew too much about computers. If you appeared, if you appeared to have any hacking skills at all, they would like ban you from the computer lab.

[00:02:41] Patrice: [00:02:41] Oh, yeah.

[00:02:42] Brett: [00:02:42] left to our own devices.

[00:02:44] Patrice: [00:02:44] I remember one of the guys in that slab got banned from, from the lab as well, because he changed like for like his senior year prank, he just changed all the backgrounds on the PCs to something and they didn’t appreciate that. [00:03:00] So he got banned.

[00:03:01] Brett: [00:03:01] Yeah. Well, I mean, my school was rightly worried. Uh, I had access, I, I worked for a company called J tech, which did a lot of like computer maintenance and. Actual cleaning. Like the, my first, my first cleaning job was cleaning a 10 megabyte hard drive in a library. Like it was the size of a desktop machine.

[00:03:23] Now it held 10 megabytes, but we would go in and clear out years worth of, uh, of whatever you call that grime that builds up inside fans.

[00:03:34] Patrice: [00:03:34] Yeah.

[00:03:35] Brett: [00:03:35] But so I had access to the computer labs over the summer. And I eventually figured out how to, through their intranet, how to get to the grades. and it was, they figured out that someone had accessed it.

[00:03:52] They assumed it was me cause I was the only person in the lab over the summer. They were correct, but I still felt singled out. I could [00:04:00] easily teenagers, easily offended.

[00:04:02] Patrice: [00:04:02] Yeah. It kind of makes sense. I mean, you’re like, well, like why me? Like

[00:04:08] Brett: [00:04:08] Yeah, just cause I know about computers. You think I’m the bad kid. Okay. Fair enough.

[00:04:15] Patrice: [00:04:15] The funny thing is I remember, um, we had doom on our, on our like lab computers and like, you could play it like multiple multiplayer over the network. I remember that it was like, I’d tell us somewhat official. Or like, at least I know that, uh, like whoever was in charge of the lab, computers actually knew about it.

[00:04:38] So I was like, I was like, how was that allowed?

[00:04:43] Brett: [00:04:43] do people still have land parties? Is that still a

[00:04:47] Patrice: [00:04:47] I think so. I’ve heard some people still doing that. Uh,

[00:04:53] Brett: [00:04:53] did that. Like, I. I was a very solo computer guy. Uh, [00:05:00] I got into like gopher and BBS is, but I never got into gaming on a network, but I was fascinated by the machines. People would build like these portable desktop machines, like cubes and, and water cooled, uh, CPU with handles on them. And yeah,

[00:05:20] Patrice: [00:05:20] Yeah, I never, I mean, I did some land parties. But it was like three, four people. And it was, for me, it wasn’t like, I didn’t care much about gaming for me. It was more like a social thing. I was like, I mean, hanging out with friends and having fun and like sleepovers and all of that. And I mean, I was like, I want to say 15, 14, something like that.

[00:05:43] 16, maybe. So. Yeah, it said for me, I’ve never been a big gamer. I mean, I’ve played some games, but I’m like, eh, I got into development early and like, it was always more fun tinkering with things and like destroying [00:06:00] things and then trying to figure out how to fix them then than anything else. Like, I mean, I don’t, I don’t remember how often I’ve like have had to install windows because I don’t know.

[00:06:10] I deleted a file that I shouldn’t have or anything like that.

[00:06:14] Brett: [00:06:14] I think my high school years were both basically spent recompiling Linux kernels. I got, I got really into Linux and I didn’t have a great understanding of like C and C plus plus I was still pretty new. I was, I was learning Pascal at the time, which also dates me. But, um, but yeah, like recompiling kernels was a regular, like almost weekly activity for me, trying to make my computer do new and different things.

[00:06:44] Patrice: [00:06:44] Yeah, I do remember doing that, but for me it was like more like university time, like mean junior year. I started doing that and like, I mean, it wasn’t that I needed to. Um, but like I wanted to get better [00:07:00] graphics performance and that kind of required if we compiling your Corolla. So I did that a couple and I did that.

[00:07:07] Like sometimes as you said, like three, four times a week,

[00:07:11] Brett: [00:07:11] Yeah, for

[00:07:11] Patrice: [00:07:11] Yeah, like optimizing things.

[00:07:14] Brett: [00:07:14] where are you located right now?

[00:07:16] Patrice: [00:07:16] Um, currently I’m in Austria, um, like somewhere relatively in the middle of Austria. So Yana on one side and then like Salzburg might be the other city that a lot of people know from like movies and stuff. Like basically on the other side here.

[00:07:31] Brett: [00:07:31] Yeah, you move around a lot. Don’t you

[00:07:34] Patrice: [00:07:34] um, kind of, yes. I mean, yeah, especially last CA I mean, since we talked last time or like, at least on systematic, um, I’ve moved a bit.

[00:07:45] Yeah. Like I moved from, I moved within Koblenz and then I moved to Arizona and then moved there a little bit and I moved here. So

[00:07:55] Brett: [00:07:55] Why? Why did, why did you move to Arizona?

[00:08:00] [00:07:59] Patrice: [00:07:59] mostly work. Sorry about that. Um, mostly work. Um, Like my company. I mean, I always like had to plan and know that I wanted to do it. Like I just wanted to move like out of Germany and wanted to like work somewhere else.

[00:08:15] Um, and it kind of, and I was talking to my managers back then, all of that. And then it kind of accidentally happened. Like they were like, okay, we’re moving a pro like a project that I started removing that to the U S for well, mostly tax purposes. Let’s be, let’s be honest. Uh, Yeah. I mean, there’s like a whole story behind that with like, I mean, basically it took over an existing project that was already running in the U S so it kind of made like there was a larger code base already in us and transferring that around the world to bleed didn’t make any sense.

[00:08:47] So they kind of were like, I mean, we’re moving this over. Their management will be in an area in Phoenix. Do you want to move? And I was like, hell yes. I didn’t even think about it. It was like, yeah, sure. Like, why not?

[00:08:59] Brett: [00:08:59] Do you, [00:09:00] is it aye. What I know of the German opinion of the United States, it seems like if you ask the German, do you want to move into, not even one of the more liberal States of the U S but into one of the most conservative States in the U S would you like to move? I wouldn’t think the answer would be hell yes.

[00:09:23] Patrice: [00:09:23] I mean, I didn’t, I wouldn’t consider Arizona that conservative. I mean, it is pretty laid back. I mean, there are, like, I would say there’s a big divide in Arizona between conservatives and liberals. Um, like the also kind of between. I mean, let’s be fair skin colors. Um, but I, I would say, yeah, if you ask most Germans, I mean, one, most of them wouldn’t consider moving to the U S at all.

[00:09:51] Like it’s, it is like the, is a group in Germany, like a group of people who like the U S and wanted to move there. And like, I dunno, I [00:10:00] think it was like somewhere around like a couple of thousand, at least every year. Do it, um, but it’s not like a space. I mean, Germany has like 80 million people or something.

[00:10:10] And most people, if you ask them whether they would ever like in their entire lifetime consider moving to the States, they know, um, like it’s kind of a. Especially in recent years, like a little bit of a political thing. Uh, but I mean, like since I went to since 2000, to be honest, like 2000, 2001 and everything that has happened after that, but kind of changed a little bit the opinion about Nick DUS and yeah, but it’s fun for me, as I said, like, I mean, I didn’t know anything about Arizona.

[00:10:42] Like I had never been there. Uh, I mean, it was kind of. I didn’t care. I was like, okay, there are some, like, so many of my friends are in the U S that I was like, I mean, it’s just easier for me to move there.

[00:10:57] Brett: [00:10:57] Yeah. All

[00:10:58] Patrice: [00:10:58] so kind of, I said it was [00:11:00] kind of, kind of an accident and it never, like, I didn’t even was expected.

[00:11:03] Like, I mean, like I, uh, lease the car, like. Six months before that and got a dark like three or four minutes before that. So if I had known, I definitely wouldn’t have done any of those things.

[00:11:14] Brett: [00:11:14] Sure,

[00:11:15] Patrice: [00:11:15] That was kind of a, yeah,

[00:11:17] Brett: [00:11:17] not how you, that’s not how you prepare for an international

[00:11:20] Patrice: [00:11:20] no. Like, I mean, moving the dog, wasn’t that difficult, but the car turned out to be a little bit of a nightmare.

[00:11:27] Brett: [00:11:27] No,

[00:11:28] Patrice: [00:11:28] Yeah. Basically paid.

[00:11:29] Brett: [00:11:29] dog would be harder.

[00:11:30] Patrice: [00:11:30] the dark was, I mean, money wise. I mean, sure. You had to pay for it, but the company paid for it. So it wasn’t like a big deal. Um, the car was more of a nightmare because like the next BMW just didn’t want to take it back. They were like, Nope. And I basically, it stayed in Germany, like in a garage for the next Nike year and a half until like the lease was up and then they took it back and I was like, okay, that makes no sense at all, but okay.

[00:11:57] Brett: [00:11:57] it really doesn’t. You would think the whole point of leasing [00:12:00] is that you could get rid of it when you want

[00:12:01] Patrice: [00:12:01] Yeah. Yes, but I mean, you have, and that was like, it’s not about the money. I’m like, I’m going to pay you for like the rest of the lease and whatever. Like, I don’t care. It’s not that much. Uh, and they were like, no, we cannot do that. It’s a very German it’s, it’s somebody on we’re very German thing. Like there is no process to do it.

[00:12:20] And customer service doesn’t exist in Germany. So they like. Well, not our problem. I went,

[00:12:27] Brett: [00:12:27] customer service doesn’t exist.

[00:12:29] Patrice: [00:12:29] that’s, that’s a very German thing. Like, I mean, there’s like a, in Germany people say like, it’s the like, whatever customer service desert, um, because like it’s, it’s customer service is a thing in the U S like very important that like, as a customer yet to happy.

[00:12:45] I mean, mostly within reason, obviously. Um, um, and that, like, there’s an investment into customer service and like, In, in, in service in general, like, I mean, even at the restaurant, that’s not the case in Germany. Like, I mean, [00:13:00] there are exceptions, there are people who are like genuinely like interested in helping you and nice to you and whatever, but mostly it’s everybody like doing their own thing.

[00:13:13] And it’s, it’s like on a, on, even on a corporate level. I mean, I saw it in, even in my company. I mean, There is a vast difference in customers like how customer services is approached in my company in Germany versus U S

[00:13:28] Brett: [00:13:28] Yeah. You would say like the U S subscribes to the, the idea that the customer is always right?

[00:13:34] Patrice: [00:13:34] yeah. Mostly as it, within reason. I mean, there are limits, like always, but it goes pretty far. Yes. It goes pretty far. Um, like one of the key experiences was, um, I actually recently in Austrian here, like I was at like a grocery store and I was returning my card and got, I got yelled at because the card wasn’t from that store [00:14:00] apparently.

[00:14:01] And I was like, how is that my problem?

[00:14:04] Brett: [00:14:04] yeah, I would say your

[00:14:05] Patrice: [00:14:05] yeah, I, I, I took it out of this. I took it out of the thing, like at the store and I’m returning it here. And like, they get really angry with me. And I was like in the U S someone would have been like, Okay, this is not our card, but don’t worry. We’ll take it from you and we’ll take care of it.

[00:14:23] And that is not how that works here. Not in Austria. Definitely not in Germany.

[00:14:28]Brett: [00:14:28] Alright.

[00:14:29] Patrice: [00:14:29] that was kind of, kind of, yeah, very interesting.

[00:14:32] Brett: [00:14:32] So one of the reasons I had you on and, and something I have a lot of questions about is you, you have transitioned to being a woman. You are a trans woman. How long ago did you officially, uh, like publicly make that transition?

[00:14:51] Patrice: [00:14:51] I mean, officially I start, I mean, I’m still transitioning. Um, that’s my kind of the process. I don’t know whether it ever ends, but, um, like it depends like some people say [00:15:00] yes, some people say no. Um, it was about a year and a little bit ago. Like, I mean, when I made it official, like it has been a process of like, I don’t know, um, 10, 20 years at least.

[00:15:14] Uh, figuring out like who I am and like really realizing things. Um, but like

[00:15:20] Brett: [00:15:20] Yeah. I didn’t assume. I didn’t assume you woke up one day and

[00:15:24] Patrice: [00:15:24] no, no, it’s, it is not a choice. Like that’s, that’s a, that’s the thing that most people don’t understand. Like, it is not a choice. It’s not something that you like wake up one day and say, OK, I’m, I’m a woman now.

[00:15:34] And just choose it. Um, it’s like a struggle to be honest. And I said it, I wouldn’t say it was easy. I mean, I’ve like knowing some other like trans people in general, uh, like either direction. Um, I’ve been lucky to be honest, like I know, I know, like I have friends that lost families and everything over it.

[00:15:59] Um, or [00:16:00] like, yeah, really, really, really struggled like personally and financially with it. And I’ve been. So far. Okay. In general, I mean, nothing is easy. Um,

[00:16:12] Brett: [00:16:12] Oh, absolutely.

[00:16:13] Patrice: [00:16:13] yeah, I mean, I made it official about a year ago. Like before I got married, basically.

[00:16:19] Brett: [00:16:19] And, and your, your wife is wife,

[00:16:25] Patrice: [00:16:25] Yeah. Wife.

[00:16:26] Brett: [00:16:26] wife. That’s what I thought. Um, you, your wife was accepting okay. With it.

[00:16:31] Patrice: [00:16:31] Yes. Uh, I mean, she, she honestly encouraged me a little bit. I insane. The funny thing is she knew, she knew, like she knew for certain way before me, like she met me and like date one, she, she knew. Um, and, and for me, like it took a little longer to really. To really accept it. Like I knew deep down, I knew this was happening and I, I was getting to the point of like also [00:17:00] understanding it and accepting it, but it’s not an easy step.

[00:17:03] Like, especially coming out to everybody. And like, she has a, she taught me after, like she started asking questions like a couple of months in, um, because she knew, um, and then like she told me, she was like, yeah, I knew take one on the first date. Like. She sees she, I mean, she really thought it would happen later.

[00:17:26] Um, and I’m pretty sure, like if, like, if I hadn’t moved or if this whole move situation hadn’t happened, it might’ve taken a little longer. I think that just accelerated it a little bit or gave me like a very convenient starting point. Or like cut over point. Um, but yeah, she knew and she was okay with it.

[00:17:48] I mean, she, she, the funny thing is, I mean, she is, she’s bisexual, more leaning towards women. She actually gave up on dating women like the year before. So, um, because that was difficult for [00:18:00] her. Uh, and yeah, that was kind of, kind of perfect. Yeah. And the kids, like, I mean, she has two kids and like the, the older one was like, I’m going to meet.

[00:18:11] I told her, she was like, yeah, I know. I knew it’s like fine. I mean, she’s like 12 now. So I mean, she’s old enough to understand it. And I mean, to be, to be fair, the entire family is like, I mean, they’re all queer. Uh, like, I mean, I have a little step down a brother-in-law, uh, who’s trans who was trans, um, like.

[00:18:37] I think my sister in law, one of my sisters at least is, uh, is gay. Um, so like it’s, it’s all over this family anyway. It’s like, they they’re used to it simply and that makes it easy.

[00:18:50] Brett: [00:18:50] yeah. That is a really good position to, to find yourself in. Like I. I’m in a relationship. Um, I’m, I would say mostly straight [00:19:00] white male. Um, I don’t, I don’t require a lot of acceptance, but I’m in a relationship where I feel every aspect of me is so accepted and encouraged that it makes me want to cry sometimes.

[00:19:14] And hearing, hearing about that situation for you also makes me want to cry because that is. Probably the most supportive environment that I could hope for in, if I, if I had to make that transition.

[00:19:26] Patrice: [00:19:26] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and is it is on one hand, it should be super easy. I mean, it is not for like, I mean, it is hard for people to make, understand it and for some people to accept it or like, I mean, at least change, uh, I mean, like referring to a person. Like with whatever male or female pronouns for years and years and years, and then changing that and maybe even changing the name.

[00:19:55] I mean, I didn’t, because I like my name, but a lot of people do, it’s not easy. Like it’s not [00:20:00] something that you can just change from like one day to another. And nobody expects that. Um, like that’s, that’s a really something, I mean, there has to be acceptance on also on all fronts. And I mean, I’ve talked to a lot of, lot of people, like all kinds of like trans, non trans, non binary, like gay, whatever, everybody.

[00:20:21] Okay. Um, and the one thing is most people can differentiate between what is unintentional mistake and what is an antenna unintentional mistake. And what is like on purpose. Yeah, exactly. And that is for most people, that’s where the line is. I mean, it might still hurt if someone like misgenders you or uses the wrong name or whatever, it might still hurt, but most people can at least separate that and say, okay, it wasn’t intentional.

[00:20:50] Like it was just a slip up. And most people are like my experience, at least I know not everybody has that. Most people are good with it. Like they’ll, they’ll correct themselves [00:21:00] or. Yeah. I mean, it has happened to me in like, I mean, I was in a meeting the other week and like one of my managers, uh, like mis-gendered me, but I know, I mean, he knows, and I know it wasn’t like he was just in, in the, in the situation because he’s like being really good before.

[00:21:18] So I, it was just a slip up and it happens and I mean, he knows me from before, so I think that makes it harder.

[00:21:24] Brett: [00:21:24] Do you think that not changing your name? So for me, with the people in my life that have transitioned them, changing their name by, by having to remember the new name, it helped me remember who they were now. And do you think that not changing your name is, do you think it added to confusion for people that have known you for a long time?

[00:21:48] Patrice: [00:21:48] Probably yes. Um, it’s hard to

[00:21:50] Brett: [00:21:50] I mean, you get to avoid being deadnamed.

[00:21:53] Patrice: [00:21:53] it’s hard. It’s hard to tell. Uh, I think sometimes yes, because they’re just used to my name, [00:22:00] um, and just use certain gender assigned with that. Um, so I think, yes, probably. Um, but from, from me, it was simply, I really liked my name. I like that it’s unique.

[00:22:13] I switched my middle name. So, um, I did change that, but that’s not the name that I usually use that much. Anyway. Um, but yeah, it probably made it harder, but for me it was like, that was a no brainer. I went kind of, I thought about it a little bit. Um, and, and ultimately I decided that I just liked my name too much. And it is the funny thing is in most countries, countries, other than France, it is actually a female name.

[00:22:46] Brett: [00:22:46] Yeah, I was wondering like in, in Germany, is it, is it kind of a unisex name

[00:22:51] Patrice: [00:22:51] Uh,

[00:22:52] Brett: [00:22:52] more of a masculine

[00:22:53] Patrice: [00:22:53] it, it is unisex leaning, female. That’s one of the reasons why my parents actually had to [00:23:00] pick a middle, like a male, like a unique, really male, middle name to make that clear. So that was the funny thing. And we’re like, I mean, kind of, kind of a happy accident. Yeah. Other than in France and did Francis for some reason, like, I mean, my name is French and in France, my name is Mayo.

[00:23:22] Any other country? Like Switzerland, Germany, U S definitely mostly, mostly female.

[00:23:29] Brett: [00:23:29] Yeah. All right. Um, so you talked about your wife’s side of the family. Have, have you had, uh, acceptance on your side of the family?

[00:23:38] Patrice: [00:23:38] Um, mostly, yes. I mean, my family is a little bit like special, I would say. Uh, it’s something, I mean, I’m, I’m going through therapy and it’s something that I’m struggling with or working with, working on. Um, we don’t talk too much. Um, my, [00:24:00] um, my sister was great. I mean, we’re probably closer with my sister now than I ever was.

[00:24:06] Through this. And, um, like she was like super like accepting. She’s like, Hey, that’s great for you. I’m like, I’m happy to have a sister. And like, if you ever need anything. Let me know, and that was it. And she’s been great. And like her, like my nieces, well, I mean, one of them is way too young anyway, to remember anything.

[00:24:28] And the other one, there were some tears, like first five minutes, but I mean, you know, kids, they forget like she, she basically accepted it like 10 minutes after that, like. Five minutes. She’s like, unsure what’s going on. And then like, she’s, she stopped. And since then, she’s like super happy to have an aunt and everything.

[00:24:46] Um, my mom and my aunt, I wrote her an email because like, as I said, we don’t talk. I mean, we, we talk on the phone, but it’s not like really having deep conversations. Really. That’s not something my family does and has never [00:25:00] done. Um, and she said cheeks, she accepts it. Um, and we’ve basically. Not talked about it at all.

[00:25:07] And I’m not a hundred percent sure she is really behind it, but she also doesn’t like say or do anything that would like tell me she’s not, I think it’s kind of, yeah, I do. They’re like little hints here and there I’m like, I mean, she complained once then, like someone apparently in her little village that she lives in, figured it out and loud, like her, she was ruined or whatever.

[00:25:30] Like she complained about that. But, I mean, she’s German. She likes to complain. So I didn’t read too much into that. I’m like, yeah. Okay. It will pass. It will pass. Like it’s the news of the day in the village and then it’s gone. Like, I didn’t care. Yeah. But other than that, like, I mean, I’m basically my family.

[00:25:52] I have an uncle that I haven’t really talked about it. I mean, he, I know he knows and he hasn’t said anything and he calls me and everything and we talk so. [00:26:00] I think she’s, he’s fine. Um, and that’s fine. That’s about it. Like, my family is very, very small, so

[00:26:07]Brett: [00:26:07] Alright. Alright.

[00:26:09] Patrice: [00:26:09] That’s that, I’m, I’m lucky. I, that I know, like friends in Germany back, they lost family, friends, everything drop.

[00:26:17]Brett: [00:26:17] Yeah. And those are the stories that I hear and that break my heart pretty regularly. Um, you made your kind of public transition as you move to the U S right.

[00:26:30] Patrice: [00:26:30] No, not really. Um, it’s kind of opposite when I moved back. Like I like the projects that I was on, uh, kind of wrapped up or like, I mean, it’s still going, but like it changed, so they didn’t need me anymore in the U S. Um, so they probably have sent me back. And that was kind of the, that transition period between yeah.

[00:26:54] Moving back wherever, like, I didn’t know even where I was going. Um, it was really nice. I [00:27:00] mean, I got like three free months paid leave, kind of. Didn’t do anything. Didn’t have to do anything other than preparing to move any somewhere and figuring out where, um, and that was kind of the point like that, that I chose.

[00:27:12] Like, I mean, I talked to my wife about getting married because I was like, I mean, she wanted to move with me and the kids as well. And we were like, okay. So we have to definitely get married before that, because otherwise it will be very, very difficult. Um, and for me, that was kind of the trigger point where I said, Okay.

[00:27:30] I don’t want to, I noticed this going on and this has been going on for a long time and it’s not like a thing that happened yesterday. I mean, is that like the, the first, like real, like the first, like really accepting, like we had the first time I really accepted that. I’m. Most likely transcended I’m I’m not happy.

[00:27:58] The way I am was [00:28:00] 10 years over 10 years ago. So this is not a, like a happened yesterday thing. Um, so, but that was for me the point where I was like, I simply could not imagine getting married as a man, like with everything that comes with it. I didn’t believe in like the whole thing anyway, like. So the whole, like, traditions about what the man has to do.

[00:28:22] And I love that. I never, I never related to that. I never believed in it. Um, and for me it was very clear. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to do this.

[00:28:31]Brett: [00:28:31] So you had the, the timing of wanting to get married, combined with a geographical change, and that kind of solidified the need to make that transition.

[00:28:42] Patrice: [00:28:42] don’t make it to make it public. And to finally do it, I said it was, it was a long time coming and kind of, I’d almost given up on like finding someone that, that like could relate to that and who could be with me and like, love me the way I am. Um, and [00:29:00] then like, it kind of accidentally happened.

[00:29:03] Um, so, so it was kind of, yeah, it was, it was really. It was the right timing. And like, I came out to my, my old team in the U S and they were like, I mean, all women, to be honest, uh, that’s like a constant in my life. Like, I’ve been more friends with women and like close friends with women than men, like barely any friendships with men anyway.

[00:29:25] Um, so like came out to them. Uh, and I mean, it was kind of, I don’t even know how it happened. I think I just talked to. I talked to one of my former employees. Like she worked for me, uh, Joanne and I told her, and I’m like, Hey, I mean, I am like, I’m trans. And I like, I want to get married as a woman. And she, she was my maid of honor, basically.

[00:29:55] Uh, and she, like, she was super supportive and she was like, yeah, let’s do it. And [00:30:00] she helped me with like everything. And like, basically I told everybody else in my team and we met up like probably the week after like four for dinner or something or for lunch. And it was like the first step. And that one was easy.

[00:30:16] The harder one was, um, like my, my, my, my mom. She wasn’t at them. She wasn’t at the wedding because, uh, she was in the hospital like the week before he entered honey. So that was kind of not happening.

[00:30:31] Brett: [00:30:31] But it wasn’t like she disowned you.

[00:30:33] Patrice: [00:30:33] No, no, no, no. She wasn’t able to, same for my sister. She got a kid like, uh, like a week before, like a bit new newborn baby.

[00:30:41] So, I mean, we didn’t, she didn’t know if she could like even travel at all. Um, and then even with a newborn, I mean, you don’t want to travel like in a plane for like 15 hours or like 10, 12 or something. Um, so that my family wasn’t there. [00:31:00] Which on one hand made it easier, but also was hard because there was like, my friends were there, but there was nobody from my family.

[00:31:08] Um, but that was kind of, yeah, I mean, this sense mostly. Um, but that was like the, the harder one, like, um, finding like, I, I wanted to send over photos to my family, obviously, uh, from the ceremony and everything. Um, Andy. Yeah, I had basically pre-written the email, like before the wedding or any, I had it ready to go, like whenever I’m I was done editing the photos and I sent it over and I was like, Hey, I mean kind of like little bit about the wedding.

[00:31:42] Like, I mean, how everything was going, like when, and like tiny paragraph about like things I was like, okay, there are photos. You’re probably gonna wonder why I’m wearing a dress. That was kind of like the introduction and they explained it and like, try to explain [00:32:00] like, why what’s going on. And I mean, it shouldn’t have been a surprise, but I’m pretty sure it was. I mean, anybody who knows me and has known me for like, I mean, like at least closer, uh, over the years, Could have guessed. And a lot of my friends did, like, I mean, friends from Germany that like have known me for five years, sometimes longer. They weren’t surprised they were like, yeah, kind of, kind of makes sense.

[00:32:26]They knew I was different. They knew something was going on. They weren’t like sure, because I never talked about it. Um, but they were kind of suspecting that something was happening.

[00:32:40] Brett: [00:32:40] Yeah. So would you and I honestly don’t know the answer to this question. Would you say it’s easier to be a trans woman in Austria or Germany or in the U S.

[00:32:53]Patrice: [00:32:53] Um, that’s, uh, that’s very difficult. Um, I mean, one us is big [00:33:00] and it builds, depend on where you are. Uh, I would say in Arizona it was, I mean, I only had little experience because like I came out basically like three months before I moved. Uh, but I would say overall it wasn’t too hard. Uh, I’m pretty sure if I had been in, I don’t know, Texas or Georgia.

[00:33:20] Or Alabama or something. It might’ve been a little bit more difficult. I know from, from like people who are in that area, um, I’m like a couple of Facebook groups. Uh, it is small or difficult. They’re like even down to what does, uh, like what does your health insurance cover? Are there any doctors even available and all of that? so it, it’s hard to tell. I mean, Austria especially makes it super difficult to do anything like you need. Like, I mean, I’m, I’m still in the process of, uh, like going on hormones and I started beginning of the year. Um, and I’ve, I’m like maybe in October, I might be lucky enough [00:34:00] to, to get there because you need, like, at least six months of therapy, you need like, uh, you need like letters from like a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and your therapist, actually two letters.

[00:34:13] Each,

[00:34:15] Brett: [00:34:15] this is we’re talking about gender reassignment.

[00:34:17] Patrice: [00:34:17] no, just hormone, hormone therapy, just for that. I have to go through another set of tests and letters and whatever, just for, for like in the future. And like couple of years, probably because you have to wait until at least two years, uh, for, for surgery. Yeah. So they make it like they follow like global guidance.

[00:34:36] Like there’s a, there’s like a medical group called w path. Um, and they have like a guidance, how the process should be, and they just follow that here. And it is, uh, like it is very, very difficult. It just takes forever. It’s costly. Uh, I mean, insurance only covers certain things about blank. All the, like the letters basically I have to pay out [00:35:00] of pocket, which is like, I dunno, 300 bucks each, I think.

[00:35:03] Um, so yeah, it is, it is a little bit of a process in the U S it would have been easier, like I could have walked into, um, planned Parenthood, for example. And most likely gotten like hormones, like a prescription within a week or two

[00:35:21] Brett: [00:35:21] probably out of pocket, I

[00:35:23] Patrice: [00:35:23] out of pocket. Yeah. But not very expensive. Like, I mean, it’s like, but from what I’ve seen depends a little bit on like the state, but like, 30 $40 a month.

[00:35:33] So not, not, not too difficult. I mean, you have to run like blood tests and another like hundred 50, I think. Um, but, uh, yeah, that would have

[00:35:42] Brett: [00:35:42] not the huge rigmarole that you have to go through. Wow.

[00:35:47] Patrice: [00:35:47] also like name changes and like gender marker changes. Uh, same process. I’m still figuring that out because like an ostium I’m obviously German citizen.

[00:35:55] So how does that even work? Like from another country? [00:36:00] Still figuring that out. I mean, seems to be rather easy. I can basically send two letters that I have to, to the courts in Germany and then let’s hope that they accepted. Otherwise. I have to somehow do the same thing again in Germany. So it is, it is a lengthy process and you have to be very, very patient.

[00:36:19] I mean, it’s something you know about, like, I mean, with, with your history, like mental illness and so on, and like getting, getting the medication that you need. Uh, you know, that’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s a thing. And so that’s why I say like, it’s, it’s hard to tell really. I mean, um, Germany, it would depend on which era you are, whether people are accepting or not.

[00:36:46] Um, like Berlin, for example, is like very queer and open or cologne is known for that. Uh, the Christopher street days are always in and in Berlin, uh, sometimes in Frankfurt as well. Um, so yeah, [00:37:00] there is a company unity and acceptance. Um, but it’s not, it’s not widespread. I mean, there are laws for like, uh, how to change your gender marker.

[00:37:11] Um, like on your birth certificate and your name and all of that. And they’re from the eighties. And until I think what was it like three, four years ago, they required that you, uh, that your marriage is dissolved. If you have one that you, um, that you’re steroidal, so you can never have any kids. Um, and I don’t remember.

[00:37:35] Oh, and do you have to have had surgery?

[00:37:37]Brett: [00:37:37] Wow.

[00:37:38] Patrice: [00:37:38] was like, I mean, eighties, eighties thinking, but that was like until the basically determined equivalent of the Supreme court kind of kick that out or kicked it out and said it’s

[00:37:46] Brett: [00:37:46] That sounds more like fifties thinking that’s. Wow.

[00:37:50] Patrice: [00:37:50] Yeah, but that’s, that’s still valid. Like, I mean, as that they kick that out like a couple of years ago. I don’t remember exactly when, but like, let’s say the last five years, uh, [00:38:00] like they basically said it’s it’s unconstitutional. Um, and there has been a fight for the last yeah. Four or five years at least to change, change the laws and make it easier for people to do it.

[00:38:15] Um, and there was actually a first reading of a draft, like for, for new law and it basically got tabled in like till whenever. So yeah.

[00:38:30] Brett: [00:38:30] well, Lisa is

[00:38:31] Patrice: [00:38:31] kind of, yeah, it’s it there’s progress and there’s some support, but it seems to be not big enough yet. So yeah.

[00:38:40] Brett: [00:38:40] All right. Well, first off, thank you for talking openly and putting up with my, uh, probably very naive questions. I appreciate that.

[00:38:49] Patrice: [00:38:49] Oh, I said, I mean, we talked about this before and I said like, I mean, I’m, I’m more than happy to talk about it. Like it’s, it is something that a lot of people don’t know about or like it’s [00:39:00] very rarely talked about in the media in general. So, uh it’s. Yeah. It’s something important that, that there is someone out there who talks about it.

[00:39:10] Brett: [00:39:10] All right. And second of all, it’s time for the top three picks. All right. So I, as I’ve been telling my guests, I no longer do my own top three. Um, so we’ll be talking about your top three and you can start with whichever one you want to.

[00:39:25] Patrice: [00:39:25] Okay. Um, um, let’s see. Which one do I start with? Um, maybe, maybe let’s stay on topic. There’s a really, really good book. Um, From a trans woman. Uh, I mean she transitioned like as a really lanky young kid. I think she’s like her mom. Realized that she was trans around like four or five. Um, the, the it’s, she’s an actress nowadays.

[00:39:53] Uh, you might know her from, um, super goal. Uh, it’s Nicole manes, uh, also [00:40:00] very famous, uh, like she, you in, in Maine actually, uh, she was, well, her parents, but like, because of her or behind the whole, um, like bathroom, So a school bathroom situation and the bill out debt ultimately passed there. Um, and the book is called becoming Nicole.

[00:40:19] And is this about, uh, both her and her twin brother? Uh, Do you remember his name? I’m blanking on it. Um, but basically about like growing up and it’s, it’s from the perspective of her mom, like how she struggled with it also like her dad, how like he dealt with it and how they navigate it. Like, especially with a young child, like how they, how to figure that, figured it out and how they very, very slowly navigated everything and like the fear that she had to live.

[00:40:49] I mean more the parents, but I think also it. Kind of like the kid as a child, you, you like, yeah. You realize something is going [00:41:00] on and you know, like, I mean, you don’t, like you realize at some point that you can’t talk about it, like with your, with your friends or something, uh, or it’s very dangerous to do that.

[00:41:08] And that like navigating that and like how that all happened. And it was a really, really good book, uh, becoming cold air, so many other books. Um, but does this for me? Kind of a all time best seller, because it’s, it made me probably realize a lot of things that I didn’t realize or that I didn’t like that I knew they were happening, but I couldn’t place really.

[00:41:34] And when I saw what was happening to her, I was like, Oh, that makes so much more sense now. Um, so if it’s simply a very good book and there’s an audio book version now on audible, if you wanted a it’s narrated by, I think even by her mom, I’m not a hundred percent sure. Um, but it’s a really good book.

[00:41:55] Brett: [00:41:55] I’ll admit I become way better at listening to books than I have at reading them.

[00:41:59] Patrice: [00:41:59] Meet [00:42:00] you it’s simply a time. It’s simply a time thing for me. Like it’s very difficult to, um, yeah. To have enough time to read. Like I’m reading. I mean, kind of like you probably, if you’re reading all day, like reading blog posts and stack overflow and cold and whatever, and like all I ever see, like a lot of Stafford reading all day, and it’s very difficult when you want to like wind down to still read, to have also the time for it.

[00:42:30] And it’s easier to like go in and walk for example, and listen to an audio book, which is what I do usually.

[00:42:36] Brett: [00:42:36] I tend to fall asleep reading, whether I’m listening or reading, if it’s at night, I just fall asleep. The nice thing about books is when I fall asleep, I stop reading. But with audio books, every time I start, I have to rewind about. Five. I put like a 15 minutes sleep timer on, cause I always fall asleep after about 10 minutes and then I have to rewind five [00:43:00] minutes and it takes me a while to get through a book that way

[00:43:03] Patrice: [00:43:03] Yeah, I have to same, same problem. I mean, it’s one of the reasons why I don’t do that with audio books anymore, but like listening to them. Like in bed at night. I usually do that with TV show. So like, I, I watch a TV show and then fall asleep, halfway through, and then like Plex keeps going for the next, like three episodes.

[00:43:21] And like, I have to figure like track back, like where did I fall asleep? So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s funny. Yeah. I, I, I do it more on walks nowadays. Like that’s easier because like you can stop and start it anytime, but you still, like, it takes like a whatever, a 10, 12 hour book. Takes a weeks ago feel, especially when you have a lot of podcasts to listen to as well.

[00:43:41] Like I don’t, I don’t want to abandon these.

[00:43:44] Brett: [00:43:44] Yeah. I’ll admit I’m still not good at listening to podcasts.

[00:43:48] Patrice: [00:43:48] Yeah.

[00:43:48] Brett: [00:43:48] am going to check out becoming Nicole, because it is a topic that I’m very curious about and have a lot to learn about.

[00:43:54] Patrice: [00:43:54] Yeah. And if anybody wants any other recommendations, there are some, some other really, really good books, [00:44:00] um, to release or to listen or read, um,

[00:44:03] Brett: [00:44:03] You want to listen to me?

[00:44:04] Patrice: [00:44:04] Oh, I have to look them up to be honest. Uh, there were a couple, uh, from, from other trans women or even trans men, um,

[00:44:12] Brett: [00:44:12] If you, uh, if you want to get me a list, I’ll add them to the show notes for this.

[00:44:17] Patrice: [00:44:17] I’ll let me write that down.

[00:44:18]I’ll I’ll provide a couple, there are a lot, um, especially I’m recommending, also reading about trans men because it like a lot of people focus on, on the women, um, for whatever reason, uh, properly the whole old patriarchy thing. Um, and men get ignored a lot or they’re less, I don’t know. They’re less threatening.

[00:44:41] I don’t know what it is.

[00:44:43] Brett: [00:44:43] No, I think, I think it very much is at least in the culture I grew up in, I think it’s less threatening to have a woman be a man than it is to have a man be a woman. There’s it, it feels different in my, in my psyche. Um, and I don’t like, I [00:45:00] can’t, I would take some therapy to, I think, to figure out exactly why,

[00:45:04] Patrice: [00:45:04] Yeah, it is,

[00:45:05] Brett: [00:45:05] definitely see that.

[00:45:06] Patrice: [00:45:06] it is a cultural thing. I mean, especially in the Western world, uh, other cultures are different yet, right? Like in pic just depends. There are cultural stuff had like. Transwomen for like centuries millennia sometimes. Um, or like half, even three genders, like in general

[00:45:26] Brett: [00:45:26] Right. I know in native American culture, the idea of the two spirits, this idea that there isn’t, that gender is non-binary and, and non binary is something to be celebrated. I’ve been reading about that.

[00:45:41] Patrice: [00:45:41] Yeah, exactly. So it’s, it’s not a new thing. It’s like a lot of people say, Oh, this came up the last couple of years. Now this has been around for a very, very, very long time.

[00:45:51] Brett: [00:45:51] For sure.

[00:45:52] Patrice: [00:45:52] Um,

[00:45:53] Brett: [00:45:53] than recorded history, perhaps.

[00:45:55] Patrice: [00:45:55] most likely, yes. I mean, there are stories, stair stories in recorded history that [00:46:00] where you’re like, okay, like that kind of sounds like there were trans women and trans men back then.

[00:46:07] I think as far as I remember even in the Bible, if you read it correctly.

[00:46:12]Brett: [00:46:12] If you choose, if you choose to interpret it,

[00:46:15] Patrice: [00:46:15] Yeah. It’s it’s all about interpretation. Yeah.

[00:46:18] Brett: [00:46:18] right, in a, in a less than modern Christian way. Um, all right. Second

[00:46:23] Patrice: [00:46:23] Second pig is an oldie, but a goodie. Um, it’s miss passers. I am right now, binge watching them again. Um, kind of, because I wanted to and kind of, because, um, granted Mahara just recently died. A very young age and I kind of wanted to watch it because of him, but I already made plans to watch rewatch it again because I do that every couple of years.

[00:46:48] Um, but it’s, it is, I’m almost through Mo I think I’m halfway through the seasons, like right now, uh, I mean, this show was going on for how long, 12 years, 10 [00:47:00] years, something like that. A very long time and it is such a good show. Like, I mean, all the content, I mean, they started in early two thousands and all the content.

[00:47:12] I mean, there are some things that are kind of dated now, like cell phones or whatever, like, I mean, flip phones, um, but almost all the content they, for me is still relevant. Like the myths that they bust it, they’re still relevant. And people today still believe with them sometimes. And. It’s just, I mean, it’s entertaining.

[00:47:33] It is like a lot of really good, like science content and information, and they tackle like the craziest things. And during like, sometimes it’s really embarrassing what they did and they sit back, they do like, I mean, all of them are like admitting that they’re like, I mean, we did the craziest stuff, like ask Carrie Byron on Twitter and she’s like, yeah.

[00:47:54] I mean, there was a crazy time. Um, But that’s what it means. What made it really good. And I kind of [00:48:00] miss a show like that today, to be honest. Um, so ms. Foster is like,

[00:48:05] Brett: [00:48:05] What, what service are you watching that

[00:48:07] Patrice: [00:48:07] um, well I have, I have the DVDs and I have it on Plex. Um, but it is, as far as I remember, I might have to look that up again, but I think it was an Amazon.

[00:48:18] Either that or Netflix like could be Netflix because they also have the white rabbit project, which was like a, kind of a follow that Carrie. And, um, I think I wasn’t carrying grants. Did I? I might remiss remember that. I know Kari Byron was there. Uh, but basically the, I think to build team like to cult build team, they did like a Netflix show called the white rabbit project.

[00:48:46] Um, and kind of in the same spirit as MythBusters. Um, and yeah, it’s, I still miss it, to be honest, there’s still so much stuff they could have done. I mean, I, [00:49:00] I understood it like after 12 years or whatever that they were kind of burnt out. Uh, but there’s a space, I would say it’s a space for a show like that now.

[00:49:11] Brett: [00:49:11] I’ll have to look up white rabbit project. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that.

[00:49:14] Patrice: [00:49:14] Yeah, it wasn’t like wildly, like it wasn’t a media. And also it’s more like a niche thing that for people who were big fans of MythBusters and were following them on Twitter, you, you do about it. Um, unfortunately, yeah, it kind of got lost in the whole, uh, Netflix mess. Like, like all the shows they’re producing, really like to have whatever.

[00:49:39] 5,000 shows a week. So I like that you show us.

[00:49:43] Brett: [00:49:43] Three seasons if 5,000

[00:49:45] Patrice: [00:49:45] yeah, exactly. Like it’s a, it was a little bit hard. It’s one of the reasons my dropped off Netflix, because it was just getting to a point where I’m like, okay, I don’t it’s too much like too many options, which then makes it hard to choose. And I [00:50:00] was like, okay.

[00:50:00] I might not

[00:50:01] Brett: [00:50:01] paradox of choice.

[00:50:03] Patrice: [00:50:03] yeah, exactly. Yup.

[00:50:05] Brett: [00:50:05] All right. What’s your third

[00:50:07] Patrice: [00:50:07] My first pig is a, the standing desks that I just ordered. I’m huge fan of standing desks. I built my own desks back in like big and Trinity back in the day out of like Ikea Ikea stuff. Um, I bought one in the U S that didn’t have to sell because it kind of, yeah, it was way too expensive too, to take it to, to Austria.

[00:50:28] Plus, I mean, the whole, like the whole power thing where it’s like a hundred, 110 volts

[00:50:35] Brett: [00:50:35] 110

[00:50:35] Patrice: [00:50:35] Yeah. Versus two 40, that would never work. And I was like, okay, it’s not worth it. Um, it’s from, uh, so, so the problem, the problem is here in Europe, it’s hard to get standing desks. I mean, there’s Ikea, which, um, some people, like I’m not a fan of their desks.

[00:50:52] Um, there’s obviously the whole like old school really expensive, like office supply ones where [00:51:00] like you pay like 1500 bucks for a more or less standard desk. Um, is that the U S companies that are love? Um, yeah, they’re they don’t ship figure out, but if they do ship it’s like shipping is like 400 bucks, which is almost as much as the desk.

[00:51:16] Um, but there’s one company called automata autonomous. That I’m a very familiar yeah. With, because I bought a chair from them and I’ve been kind of watching them for a really long time. Uh it’s at autonomous ai.ai. Um, and they actually ship for free, they’re sending desk to Europe. Um, and I know their stuff is really good.

[00:51:39] I have quite a few friends that haven’t. Um, so I ordered that and I ordered the, basically just the frame because the tabletop wasn’t like really what I wanted. Like it wasn’t big enough and yeah, just didn’t make any sense. So I just ordered the frame and ordered the tabletop here and made my own desk.

[00:51:58] And for the [00:52:00] office actually, Fully adjustable, like, uh, like I ordered the premium version, so it’s like two mortars and fully electronic and everything, uh, everything you need basically. And I’m a big fan. Like I like, I like standing, like I, yeah, honestly, I mean, for podcasting, especially I kind of miss it.

[00:52:20] I like it. Yeah. Didn’t buy one here for, from my office. Um, and I miss it really. I like standing more than sitting.

[00:52:27]Brett: [00:52:27] Yeah, I, um, I bought a next desk, uh, adjustable, like it’s got the controller and you can just push a button and turn it into a standing desk. And I paid, I think almost two grand for it. And it looks almost exactly like this one that they have for like $400.

[00:52:49] Patrice: [00:52:49] Yeah, the frame, the frame is about, uh, well, right now it’s like three 19 as far as I can see here. Um, so this is just the frame, the tabletop, like with the [00:53:00] tabletop, it’s like, let’s say $400 for an eight, four 20, something like that.

[00:53:04] Brett: [00:53:04] Yeah,

[00:53:05] Patrice: [00:53:05] so yeah, and, and it is.

[00:53:07] Brett: [00:53:07] premium.

[00:53:09] Patrice: [00:53:09] Exactly. Yeah. I bought the DIY kit premium dual motor that’s at the, the cool thing is you can like, literally pick your own tabletop.

[00:53:18] I mean, they have a, they have a range of, I think, reasonably priced and really nice looking, they will, but you can literally, like, I don’t know, go to home Depot or whatever and pick up one that you like. I mean, I’m, I’m a big fan of like wooden tabletops. Um, not for the office, like here. I kind of didn’t want to do that since then.

[00:53:38] Like the cleaning, the cleaning staff might not treat it well. So like, eh, maybe, maybe I’ll use something that’s a little bit easier to clean, but for like, for my home office, um, like I like, like. Hardwoods, um, just oil, it like, like sand it oily, and then like use whatever tabletop you want. And like, you [00:54:00] can even pick your own science.

[00:54:01] That’s a cool thing. You buy the dike DIY kit and you can just pick whatever size you want. Like whatever fits in your, in your house, in your apartment, in this space you have, or like, however, like they have some size limits, obviously. Like how small or how big it can be, but it’s pretty wide. Like a, I would have to look it up.

[00:54:18] Um, I think it’s like, See, um, what does it say here? Uh, and well, 42, 73 inches, basically.

[00:54:31] Brett: [00:54:31] Nice. All right,

[00:54:32] Patrice: [00:54:32] So that’s, that’s kind of nice range.

[00:54:36] Brett: [00:54:36] Um, I am remembering now that part of the reason my desk was so expensive is because it came with a treadmill.

[00:54:42] Patrice: [00:54:42] Okay. That makes it okay. That makes sense. Sure.

[00:54:46] Brett: [00:54:46] But still, I think the desk itself was still like $1,500, which now seems ridiculous. But at the time it seemed like the best one I could find.

[00:54:56] Patrice: [00:54:56] Yeah. I mean,

[00:54:57] Brett: [00:54:57] then I was making six figures and it was no [00:55:00] big deal, but.

[00:55:00] Patrice: [00:55:00] sure. Yeah. I think, I think that that’s the, that’s the whole thing. Why these companies exist and there I said I’ve, I’ve had a, I think it was an uplift desk before. Which was really, really good. And I’m like, those companies exist for that reason because, cause it was a market that was basically, well mostly for either people making six figures or, uh, yeah, I mean like, like people furnishing offices, like professional, like office, office cubicles, and, um, Yeah, there you could.

[00:55:34] I mean, I’m pretty sure, like my company in Germany bought like standing desks for the new, like new buildings since on, and I’m pretty sure they paid way too much for it because they just, like, they just went to their office supply company and we’re like, okay, we want standing. Yes. And they probably charged like 1500 bucks for each one of them.

[00:55:53] And I’m like, I could have gotten you three for that.

[00:55:56]Brett: [00:55:56] I’m looking at the next desk site, which is now known as [00:56:00] X desk. Um, and they don’t even list prices, which is always a scary thing. Oh, here it is. The, uh, the X desk X desk air. It starts without a treadmill at 2178. So

[00:56:15] Patrice: [00:56:15] Wow.

[00:56:17] Brett: [00:56:17] And then if you want the matte black, you can go up to $2,700.

[00:56:21] Patrice: [00:56:21] Hmm. Yeah. Um, I mean, I’m, I’m pretty sure they are probably very, very nice and very, very fast and whatever, but I’m like the desks I’ve had and the desks I’ve seen, like, like at my friend’s houses, I haven’t had found any issue with them. I like they’re not too load or not like wobbly or anything.

[00:56:45] I’m like, they’re, they’re fine. Like, I don’t know why you would pay more than that.

[00:56:50] Brett: [00:56:50] I think, I think next desk got in trouble because their, uh, their desks were prone to tipping. If I remember correctly, [00:57:00] mine’s never tipped. It’s never seemed like it’s going to tip, but that was the, uh, the major safety complaint was, uh, was tipping with theirs

[00:57:08] Patrice: [00:57:08] Yeah. I mean, that, that can happen. I mean, there’s a lot of like, especially if you fully extend them, like all the way up, if you’re, I don’t know, six, seven or something, I could definitely see that happening at some point.

[00:57:20] Brett: [00:57:20] yeah, yeah.

[00:57:21] Patrice: [00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:22] Brett: [00:57:22] Um, I’m I’m six foot, but on top of a treadmill, I’m closer to six, five anyway. Um, yeah, so people can find you you’re you’re frequently, regularly on the British tech network on the Mac show and the big show. And you have a podcast called foodie flashback.

[00:57:43] Patrice: [00:57:43] Yeah,

[00:57:43] Brett: [00:57:43] Where else can people, where else can people locate

[00:57:46] Patrice: [00:57:46] Um, I would say the easiest is to head over to the patrice.com that redirects to my website. It was just easy. I like my website is actually my last name, Brenda moore.net, but nobody can spell that. So [00:58:00] I just, at some point just said, okay, the Patrice. That works and it just redirects. Uh, it’s like probably like for you like TD scoff and like, nobody can remember Brett TURPs drop properly with the three T’s.

[00:58:14] Brett: [00:58:14] TT scoffed.com and dot net with no E interp stra those both redirect to dot com. Yet I still find myself spelling out Brett terptree.com for people

[00:58:27] Patrice: [00:58:27] exactly. This

[00:58:27] Brett: [00:58:27] when I’m on a phone call and they ask me what email address to use. And I have to I’m like, do you have my name in front of you? Just put it all together.

[00:58:34] Patrice: [00:58:34] exactly. I did the same thing. I’m like first name@lastname.net and people still get it wrong. So yeah, no. So the patrice.com, that’s where you will find like all the links, like the podcasts and, um, yeah. Open source projects and all of that.

[00:58:50] Brett: [00:58:50] all right. Well, thanks again for being here.

[00:58:54] Patrice: [00:58:54] It was a really great pressure pleasure. Uh, I’m really happy that systematic it’s back. I mean, [00:59:00] I’m not going to lie. Fs did. I was kind of wondering, I was like, Oh, what happened now? I mean, I’ve, I’ve listened. I mean, we talked about like in 2014 when I was on, I had already been listening for like a couple of years.

[00:59:10] So that probably means I probably start listening very, very early. Uh, I didn’t even think it goes to, I thought I jumped in somewhere in the middle, but then I saw it. I was like,

[00:59:20] Brett: [00:59:20] I think it started in like 2012, so

[00:59:23] Patrice: [00:59:23] yeah. I probably

[00:59:24] Brett: [00:59:24] a new podcast at the time.

[00:59:26] Patrice: [00:59:26] Yeah. I I’m, I’m thinking like, I probably listened from like either episode one or like very early on Watson.

[00:59:32] I’ve always enjoyed it. Like every, every single guest I’ve enjoyed. So I really missed it. I’m also happy that overtime

[00:59:38]Brett: [00:59:38] I really appreciate that. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s comforting to note that someone missed

[00:59:43] Patrice: [00:59:43] No. Absolutely. Like overtired is such a fun podcast. So

[00:59:48] Brett: [00:59:48] I, and, and I will be publishing by the time this episode comes out, it will have already been out, but as of right now, I’ll be publishing the first episode next week. I’m excited.

[00:59:59] Patrice: [00:59:59] yeah, me too. I [01:00:00] can’t wait.

[01:00:01]Brett: [01:00:01] All right. Well, I hope to talk to you again in less than six years.

[01:00:05] Patrice: [01:00:05] Let’s let’s see.

[01:00:07] Brett: [01:00:07] Alright,

[01:00:08] Patrice: [01:00:08] Thank you. Thank you.

352 episodes