Episode 472: The “Sin of Empathy” & Spotting Toxic Leaders with Jamin Goggin & Kyle Strobel


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By Phil Vischer. Discovered by Player FM and our community — copyright is owned by the publisher, not Player FM, and audio is streamed directly from their servers. Hit the Subscribe button to track updates in Player FM, or paste the feed URL into other podcast apps.

Former megachurch pastor, evangelical wunderkind, and author of “I Kissed Dating Goodbye,” Josh Harris, has since left his wife and renounced his faith. He’s now pitching himself as an expert guide for other ex-vangelicals. What does his story tell us about the evangelical subculture? Then, strange things are happening at John Piper’s church in Minneapolis where leaders are clashing over issues of race and abuse. And some pastors are resigning after being accused of “the sin of empathy.” Then, Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel return to discuss revisions to their 2017 book “The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb.” They stopped selling the book and revised it because one of the Christian leaders they celebrated as a “lamb” turned out to be a “dragon.” They’re now asking, why do we so often fail to spot toxic church leaders? Plus, scientists are making mini-brains from stem cells. But to their surprise, the brains have grown eyes. Leading Phil to ask, What could possibly go wrong?

News Segment

Updates from the crew (Jason’s cinnamon rolls and Christian’s film) [1:49]

Stem cell mini-brains with eyes [7:45]


Josh Harris [16:21] https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/joshua-harris-mars-hill-podcast-kissed-christianity-goodbye.html

“Bethlehem Baptist Leaders clash over ‘coddling’ and ‘cancel culture’” [33:20] https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/august-web-only/bethlehem-bcs-minneapolis-resign-meyer-empathy-rigney.html

Interview with Jamin Goggin & Kyle Strobel The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb (Revised and updated edition): https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/way-of-the-dragon/

Episode 238 (Prior conversation with Jamin Goggin and Kyle Strobel): https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast/episode/1eea0773/episode-238-power-and-the-church-withjamin-goggin-and-kyle-strobel

BONUS Patreon question: What do we do with the content and impact from toxic leaders? https://www.patreon.com/posts/55594990

Interview Start [1:00:39]

Why is there a new edition? [1:02:37]

Original story and role of book [1:06:35]

How they processed the news of Jean Vanier’s abusive behavior [1:10:43]

Discerning wolves from lambs - is there hope for progress? [1:16:17]

Ministering to people who have been deceived and hurt [1:24:04]

490 episodes